Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124
03/15/2013 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB129 | |
| HB158 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HJR 9 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 129 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | HB 158 | TELECONFERENCED | |
HB 158-DNR HUNTING CONCESSIONS
2:29:08 PM
CO-CHAIR FEIGE announced that the final order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 158, "An Act authorizing the commissioner of
natural resources to implement a hunting guide concession
program or otherwise limit the number of individuals authorized
to conduct big game commercial guiding on state land."
2:29:47 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER reported back to the committee that as HB
4 was moved out of committee last week he had committed to
taking the regulatory provisions of the Regulatory Commission of
Alaska (RCA), the AS 08.42 provisions to the RCA for comment and
review. He confirmed the RCA held that hearing and the
commitment has been fulfilled.
2:30:48 PM
VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Master Guide 151, Hunt Alaska, stated his son,
Eric Umphenour is also a master guide [license number 184]. He
said they are both members of the Alaska Professional Hunters
Association (APHA) and the GCP will stabilize the industry and
make it responsible. He offered his support for HB 158. He
said he averages about 20 clients per year and his son averages
about 15 clients. He explained his guiding operation consists
of 16 Alaska Natives and 5 Caucasians that operate in the Alaska
Range and Huslia, Kaltag, and Unalakleet.
MR. UMPHENOUR offered his belief what this bill will do is
stabilize the guiding industry. Most guides would like to have
sustainable businesses.
2:32:23 PM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON requested whether he has a federal
concession or if he operates on state lands.
MR. UMPHENOUR responded that he has a federal concession in the
Koyukuk National Wildlife Refuge. He indicated state land is in
the middle of the refuge, which is where his base camp is
located so he also operates on state lands. Additionally, he
and his son have Bureau of Land Management (BLM) permits and his
son also operates on state lands.
2:33:29 PM
ROBERT A. JEWETT, Registered Guide 1231, said he has been in the
guide industry for 33 years, has worked as a registered guide
for eight years, and derives the majority of his income from
guiding. He offered his viewpoint on how the bill would affect
the majority of the current registered guides. As previously
mentioned, about 400 guides sign contracts using licenses.
However, under DNR's plan only about 298 leases will be
available. Under the DNR plan each guide will be able to apply
for three leases by qualification. This means 100 guides could
take up to three leases, or essentially obtain all of the DNR
leases. Therefore, he surmised that 300 of the 400 guides would
not be eligible for leases.
MR. JEWETT indicated substantial discussion has ensued relating
that fewer guides would manage the wildlife resources. This
[proposal] has many flaws, the biggest one related to contracts.
As pointed out by Steve Perrin, guides have contracts signed
contracts three years in advance. He stated that he signs a
contract with a client and accepts his deposit, which is
subsequently spent on business, equipment, fuel, and home needs.
Two years later, as per contract, he is supposed to guide the
client. If a bad winter happens, he asked whether he would
cancel the hunt. He said he not think HB 158 addresses the
wildlife populations.
2:36:16 PM
MR. JEWETT, regarding overcrowding, said he agreed conflicts
exist in some areas. He said he has also guided in the same
area as Mr. Umphenour in unit 20A, and specifically in guide use
area 20-04. He pointed out he has had several repeat clients,
which is an indicator that the clients have had a good
experience. Additionally, he has guided in unit 16, which is a
high use area and he has also experienced repeat clients in that
area. In closing, he said that he qualified as a registered
guide after working as an assistant guide for many years, then
tested to become a registered guide. He offered his belief he
should be able to guide on state land as well as all other legal
guides who have undergone the testing. Furthermore, the bill
will not change the number of hunters in the field. He asked
members to please consider the impact of removing the livelihood
of 75 percent of the guides by putting them out of business and
creating a monopoly for 25 percent of the guides, but not
solving any of the real issues.
2:37:44 PM
WAYNE WOODS, Master Guide 108, indicated he would submit
[written] testimony.
2:38:10 PM
BRAD DENNISON, Master Guide 138, stated he is a master guide
living in Sitka. He said he is testifying in support of HB 158.
He also supported the testimony previously presented by the
Alaska Professional Hunters Association. He provided his
background, such that he operates on the Tongass National Forest
under a special use permit that allows him to conduct
approximately 25 hunts, including approximately one-third for
brown bear hunts and two-thirds for black bear hunts. He and
his wife live in Sitka and their assistant guides who help them
in their business reside in Sitka, as well.
MR. DENNISON said the current situation of overcrowding of
hunters and guides on state land is very similar to the what
happened in Southeast Alaska on federal lands, when a
proliferation of guiding activities impacted the hunting
experience and eventually became a biological concern for ADF&G.
The U.S. Forest Service (USFS) went to a restrictive permitting
system in the 1990s to limit the number of guides, as well as
the allocation to each qualifying guide. That system has worked
well in Southeast Alaska, which has a healthy bear population,
good resident hunting opportunities, and a healthy guiding
industry.
MR. DENNISON said the DNR's guide concession program (GCP) for
state lands is similar to what has worked in Southeast Alaska in
the Tongass National Forest. He indicated he does not operate
on state lands so the proposed GCP will not impact him for the
short term. However, he could be impacted over the long term
since big game management may lead to competitive drawing hunts
on a statewide basis, including on federal lands in which he
currently operates. He offered his belief that his guiding
business will suffer if drawing permit hunts are held. In fact,
he was unsure if his business would be profitable if the state
changes to drawing permit hunts. In addition to the current
problems being experienced on state lands, the long term impact
of allowing guides unlimited growth on state lands eventually is
likely to impact the guiding industry all across Alaska. For
these reasons, he encouraged members to support HB 158.
2:40:41 PM
SAM ROHRER, Registered Guide 1098, Sam's Alaskan Adventures;
President, Alaska Professional Hunters Association (APHA),
stated that guiding represents 60 percent of his income and he
is an APHA member. Additionally, he holds a federal concession
on Kodiak Island and he also hunts on state land. He strongly
encouraged members to support HB 158 and the development of a
guide concession program (GCP) on state lands. He stated that
he is a lifelong rural resident of Alaska and a second
generation hunting guide. It is through guiding that he
supports his family. He reported that APHA represents
approximately one-third of the contracting registered guides in
Alaska.
MR. ROHRER offered his personal viewpoint, such that the
proposed GCP will benefit long-term wildlife conservation and
will benefit resident hunters by reducing the number of guide
operations in any given area. Additionally, the proposed GCP
will contribute to the long-term sustainability of the guiding
industry, which in turn, brings important long-term economic
benefits to Alaska's small communities. He has heard some
people express concern that a GCP will eliminate opportunities
and entrance to the guiding industry for up and coming guides.
However, he did not believe this is the case. He has
successfully competed for a federal area on Kodiak, which is one
of the most competitive areas in the state. Even so, at age 21
he was successful in being awarded an area. He recalled Mr.
Becker's testimony on 3/13/13, that if a young guide commits
himself to the industry, works hard, and follows the law, he can
be successful in a concession-style program. For these reasons,
he asked members to support HB 158.
2:43:08 PM
MIKE COWAN, Registered Guide 1126, Crosshairs Outfitters, stated
he has guided in Alaska for over 30 years, having acquired his
assistant guide license in 1981 and his registered guide license
in 2002. He said he guides fly-out fisherman and their families
each summer. Each year he contracts a minimum of 15 clients for
hunting and 350 clients for fly-out fishing on state land. He
stated that guiding provides 100 percent of his income and he is
a member of the APHA. He agrees with the APHA's lobbying in
many instances, but not with respect to HB 158.
MR. COWAN said that the language and format of HB 158 is too
complex, plus it does not entirely address the problem of
overcrowding. He agreed that something must be done, but only a
small part of the problem is being addressed by the bill. It is
not just guides, but air taxis and transporters who also impact
the issues.
MR. COWAN wondered why a study has not been done. He predicted
that reducing guides in some areas will help reduce
overcrowding, but it will create other problems for air taxi
operators and transporters. He said there is significant
hearsay alleging too many guides; however, it is unfair to
single out just the guides. Therefore, he cannot support a
concession program (GCP) since it is not complete.
MR. COWAN recalled Mr. Spraker [Board of Game] testifying that
there are way too many hunters. He said he couldn't have said
it better. "It's about conservation," he said. He asked
members to address the entire problem, not just part of it.
Moreover, non-resident hunters bring in significant revenue to
Alaska and help many programs in communities. He predicted that
if the GCP is adopted, thousands of dollars will benefit the DNR
and not the state. As mentioned on 3/13/13, DNR cannot fix the
current problems, let alone take on a huge project like this,
which will cost over $1 million each year to operate. He was
unsure of the source of funding, but he suspected the DNR is
banking on the outfitters and guides to book hunts each year in
order to fund the program. He offered his belief that
currently, the economy is too unstable and unpredictable. Thus
some people are not booking hunts. He once asked Mr. Cox, DNR,
once asked how much guide fees were. He also asked whether it
is "all about the money." He said he wasn't surprised when he
did not receive a response.
MR. COWAN expressed his concern that the bill lacks of a
provision for emergency transferability of a permit in case of a
guide's death, heart attack or major illness. He wondered what
happens to the clients, or to the guides and their families who
have worked so hard to build their business and are burdened by
the program. He predicted the DNR would just give the business
to the next guy in line. He felt this was unfair, that the U.S.
Constitution was based on free enterprise, liberty, and life.
He did not support more government control. In conclusion, he
said he would not sign any contracts without protecting the
business he has worked so hard to build and he did not think the
GCP would provide any protection to businesses.
2:46:53 PM
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON asked for clarification on his concern
about the bill's lack of permit transferability.
MR. COWAN explained that the program only allows emergency
transferability of permits due to death. Thus, the concession
would go to the next guide in line for a permit. For example,
in the event a guide has a major illness, the program does not
have a provision for his/her guides to work the guide areas if
the guide is in the Lower 48 obtaining treatment since by
statute the guide must be in the area.
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON understood his point. She envisioned
numerous scenarios, including an individual guide who does not
have a family to fill in. She also wondered how an individual
concession would be handled in the aforementioned scenario.
MR. COWAN agreed in some instances it would be best to have the
concession transferred to the next person in line; however, he
would like a provision for a family member to finish out the
season.
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON pointed out that some guides do not
have family members who can take over for them so the program
would need to address some situations.
MR. COWAN agreed.
2:50:10 PM
CLIFFORD SMITH, Registered Guide 1318, stated that he is not an
APHA member, but he conducts 100 percent of his business on
state land and derives 100 percent of his income from guiding.
He indicated he just received his license last year, but prior
to that he worked for many years to gain his license. He said
he has invested substantial money in his area. He expressed
concern that he could be put out of business if the state goes
to a DNR concession. Actually, the program is set up on
competitive process based on experience and the number of guides
who can operate in an area. He felt resigned to the fact that
he is not likely to get a concession, but if he does, it could
be a limited concession that would only allow him to take out
four hunters, which would not provide an adequate income for his
family. In conclusion, he did not believe the GCP has any
biological or scientific data backing it. While the APHA
accomplishes a significant number of positive things, he offered
his belief that the organization is working to create a
monopoly. While he's learned a great deal from some [APHA]
members, he did not think it was right to eliminate new guides.
He hoped members would take this into consideration before
approving the program.
[Co-Chair Feige passed the gavel to Co-Chair Saddler.]
2:52:30 PM
KEVIN ADKINS, Assistant Guide 1132, expressed concern that the
legislature is considering a bill from a state agency's
standpoint that is not cohesive with other state agencies. He
said he is not a member of the APHA and he doesn't understand
the reason the committee would need to know his affiliation with
the professional society. He stated that the bill is trying to
address land use, but the permits would be awarded on the number
of animals the guides intend to take and other criteria over
which the DNR doesn't have any jurisdiction. Actually, the BOG
sets the bag limits, the BGCSB sets up the parameters for guide
operations. He encouraged members to pass a bill in which all
the state agencies affected by the bill are also involved.
2:54:26 PM
MR. ADKINS said represents the guide "living the nightmare" that
guides predict will happen to them if the GCP is passed and they
don't get a permit. He explained that he obtained his
experience in the federal system in Kodiak. He said he also has
a fishing lodge and a family to support and earns 80 percent or
more of his income from either big game guiding or fishing.
MR. ADKINS said he doesn't want to overcrowd the area directly
behind his home so he's had to seek private land. He has been
affiliated with different organizations. Sometimes he doesn't
go home for months on end in order to continue to be a guide and
act in a responsible, ethical, and respectful manner to the
people already operating on state land where he lives.
MR. ADKINS indicated that Kodiak Island is a drawing permit hunt
area, and if the state goes to a drawing permit area, not enough
private land will exist. He encouraged members to coordinate
between departments (ADF&G and DNR).
2:56:39 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER asked whether Mr. Adkins currently has a
federal concession, the number of clients he guides each year,
and the percentage of income derived from guiding.
MR. ADKINS responded that he has moved away from hunting big
game and only signed one contract last year. He said he
currently guides 20 sportsmen each year on the Aleutian Islands
to harvest reindeer. He said 100 percent of his income is
derived from activity associated with guiding sportsmen, not
necessarily for big game, although he took one bear hunter on
private land on the Alaska Peninsula. In response to
Representative Saddler, he answered that he does not have a
federal concession.
2:57:39 PM
[Co-Chair Saddler passed the gavel back to Co-Chair Feige.]
2:57:44 PM
DICK ROHRER, Master Guide 69, Rohrer Bear Camp, Inc., asked to
testify in favor of HB 158. He said he contracts approximately
30 hunts each year, with approximately 50 percent for guided
brown bear hunts and the other half for Sitka blacktail deer.
He spends about six months in the field and earns approximately
75 percent of his income from guide-related activities and the
remainder from investments. He recently served for two terms on
the BGCSB. He came to Alaska in 1965 at the age of 22 and was
introduced to the guiding industry. In 1976, he became a
registered guide and a member of the APHA and he has contracted
hunts since 1982. He characterized himself as a "boots on the
ground" contracting guide. What this means is that he
personally guides all of his contracted clients in the field, he
said. For the past 20 years he has operated under the federal
competitive guide concession program on Kodiak Island. He will
start his next 10-year federal concession period in the spring
under the same process. Since he will be 80 years old at when
the next concession ends, it is unlikely that he'll personally
compete for or financially benefit from guide concession
programs on state land. However, he offered his professional
opinion that the guide profession as a whole will benefit more
under a guide concession program on all lands in Alaska, in
particular for current assistant guides who are interested in a
lifelong profession. He noted his son, Sam Rohrer, testified
earlier. He encouraged members to vote in favor of HB 158 and
move it out of committee today.
3:00:34 PM
ROBERT FITHIAN, Master Guide 126, Alaskan Mountain Safaris,
stated that 75 percent of his annual income is derived from a
family guiding operation. He has averaged eight multiple
species clients per year for the past 25 years. He has
previously held a federal concession, but no longer holds one.
He currently operates primarily on state lands with a couple of
private land use authorizations.
MR. FITHIAN said he is in full support of HB 158, which simply
clarifies the authority of the DNR's commissioner to develop the
much needed, long overdue, well-vetted guide concession program
(GCP). This bill would address and clarify the legislature's
historic concerns on whether the DNR has the authority to
provide the proposed stewardship oversight, as it does with
other natural resource based industries. He said his comments
are based on a long history as a leader of professional hunting,
and as a guide and wildlife advocate for Alaska, the U.S., and
other countries throughout the world, as well as a personal 30-
year guide professional guide history in Alaska. He said he was
appointed to represent the guide, outfitter, and tourism
industries in America by the Secretaries of Departments of
Interior and Agriculture to serve on the bi-partisan Wildlife
Hunting Heritage Conservation Council under the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service (USFWS).
3:02:09 PM
MR. FITHIAN said his family has a long history and affiliation
with Alaska's mining, forestry, agriculture, and natural
resources industries. Without question, the GCP will provide
Alaska, rural communities, and professional guide service
providers with a viable and important long-term sustainable
future. He predicted that without the DNR's GCP, the state will
have restrictions on non-resident hunter opportunities that will
reduce and in many cases eliminate the viable future of the
guiding profession. He remarked that serving on a committee
committed to enhancing, protecting and finding maximum benefit
from our public trust resources has given members the
perspective that a competitive commercial profession dependent
upon public trust resources cannot run unrestrained without
serious conservation, social, and industry stewardship failure.
3:03:43 PM
MR. FITHIAN said the ADF&G's mission statement reads, " ... to
protect, maintain, and improve the fish, game, aquatic plant
resources of the state, manage their use, and development in the
best interests of the economy and the well-being of the people
of this state consistent with the sustained yield principle."
He offered his belief that if members review the ADF&G's guiding
principle, core purpose, and goals, they will see that the state
cannot provide for these best-interest mandates without a system
like the GCP to provide for and protect them. He highlighted
that the problem lies with the inability of the state to
regulate the amount of commercial enterprise from the hunting
guide profession that impacts the state's wildlife, social
atmospheres, other wilderness users, law enforcement, and
prevents Alaska from being able to obtain maximum benefit and
sustained yield constitutional mandates.
MR. FITHIAN said as a person who has attended more Board of Game
(BOG) meetings than any other sitting BOG member, he can assure
members that the BOG will have no choice but to eventually pass
restrictions on non-resident hunter opportunities with
restrictive measures. He predicted such measures will close the
door on the economic viability of professional guide services
providers. He has seen this same equation play out in numerous
Western states throughout the U.S. In each case, elimination of
long-established guide businesses occurs, significant reduced
rural community economics, significant loss of important
conservation funding relative to non-resident license fails,
substantial loss of Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration
matching funds occurs, and reduced overall wildlife conservation
and stewardship. When the state failed to develop a GCP program
or similar program, the federal agencies took over control of
the guided hunting profession on the majority of federal lands
in Alaska.
3:05:06 PM
MR. FIFTHIAN said his family has provided guiding services in an
area that prior to 1988 was limited to three guides. During
that time the guides developed a respected relationship with the
local communities and experienced little or no conflict. This
same region now averages eight operators per year, all vying for
what's left of dwindling harvestable surpluses, which has
deteriorated the quality of experience for clients, caused
considerable frustration to local residents, which has resulted
in costly law enforcement efforts due, in part, to poor
accountability of guides. He said the failures go on and on.
He said his sons and grandsons have grown up here but do not
have viable future to guide on state lands without this GCP
being implemented. He encouraged members to move the bill and
help provide sustainability and viability of the guide industry.
3:06:06 PM
MARK WAGNER, Registered Guide 1222, Boot Bay Guide Service,
stated he earns about 20-25 percent of his income from guiding
and 100 percent of his income from a combination of guiding,
trapping, and commercial fishing. In February 2009, he attended
a meeting between the guides and the DNR to consider a
concession program. At the outset, interested parties were told
that any plan would need to be approved by the legislature. He
stated he is opposed to HB 158 for several reasons. First, he
believes it is premature to consider a bill without a final plan
to consider. In fact, the public comment period ended for the
2013 proposal just ended two weeks ago so the final plan has not
yet been drawn up. At the very least, any legislative action
should be tabled until the plan is available, he said.
3:07:58 PM
MR. WAGNER said he guides bear hunts on state land on the Alaska
Peninsula and also has a federal concession on Adak Island in
unit 912, in which historically four to five guides have
operated. However, he has not guided on Adak Island for the
past three seasons due to the poor trophy quality of the herd.
The 2012 proposed GCP plan would have allowed four fulltime
guides in the area. However, the DNR's current 2013 concession
plan has reduced that to one fulltime guide and one limited
guide. He expressed concern over the reduction so he asked Mr.
Cox the reason the unit had been reduced. He said that Mr.
Cox's response indicated the reduction was made due to a lack of
demand for guided hunts in that unit as evidenced by such light
hunting pressure. He questioned why DNR would reduce the number
of guides. Basically, this makes no sense to him, since there
is not any biological reason to do so. Further, he doesn't hunt
moose in the area since the local hunters need them. Instead,
he primarily hunts bears since a reduction in bears is welcomed
by local residents. He previously held an APHA membership,
which he dropped once he found out the organization did not
represent his interests. He urged members to table any action
on HB 158. He suggested that the process should be started over
with legislative oversight.
3:10:05 PM
CO-CHAIR FEIGE held over HB 158.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| HB 129 Briefing Paper.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB 129 Fiscal Note DNR-DOG-2-27-13.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB 129 House Resources Hearing Request.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB 129 Transmittal Letter.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB 129 ver A.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB 129 Weissler Public Testimony .pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HB129 Sectional Analysis.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HRES HB129 DNR Presentation 3.15.13.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 129 |
| HRES HB 158 Letter Packet 7.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 158 |
| HRES HB158 Letter Packet 8.pdf |
HRES 3/15/2013 1:00:00 PM |
HB 158 |